Forgotten Realms Wiki talk:Canon
Hmmm...interesting. If any of you users out there are having trouble with figuring out if something is canon or not, you may want to see this page. One man saying that "canon is what you make of it" or something like that... well, doesn't quite make sense. My example: Klickjax the Tunafish Sandwich (not a real person, but a name you can give a character in an RPG) didn't really fight say... Klickjax-hater the Rat (if that rodent existed). Or, say Ukiuklayla, if that is your character's name (say it is) in a game of FR D&D is battling Kyu the Troll. You know this did not happen in the books, which is what Wizards of the Coast acknowledges as "canon." Agame of D&D is not canon. Maybe a pregenerated adventure, but not something a DM makes up. Cell4 01:23, 2 February 2007 (UTC) : So if Canon is only stuff in print from WotC.....then is all that stuff on the WtoC web site just fluff? Or does web site stuff get to be cannon too. When they make Dragon and Dungeon PDF's are they still cannon? Do novels count as cannon, or only D&D game books? :: Don't forget to sign your posts on talk pages with the four tildes (~~~~)! Thanks! Fluff and crunch are not the same thing as canon and non-canon. You can have canon or non-canon fluff, and canon or non-canon crunch too. The sourcebooks are canon. The novels are canon. The website is canon. Stuff like forum posts on the web site is not canon, even if the post was made by a FR author (like Eric L. Boyd). There are some canon forum posts at Candlekeep, found in such collections as "So Sayeth Ed". The computer games are not canon, although certain elements might be, but shouldn't be relied upon. Fw190a8 01:52, 8 May 2007 (UTC) :: To add to that, it shouldn't matter if you make a mistake as to whether your source is canon, because in an ideal world, all statements on the wiki are sourced. See House Dlardrageth for a "well-sourced" article. If someone else notices that a non-canon source has been used, they'll come along and mark it as such. That's the advantage of a wiki! The worst thing you could do (beyond totally vandalizing the place) is making a controversial or non-canonical statement with no reference! Fw190a8 01:56, 8 May 2007 (UTC) ::: I'm sorry, is there an actual source that explicitly states that video games are not canon? "Any published source relating to the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting" is not limited to sales in paper form, unless stated otherwise. Thanks. Antinate 13:44, 11 July 2008 (UTC) :::: Note that there are published novels based on the Baldurs Gate series. They contradict parts of the video games. So now we have conflict, and we must decide which one is official. I'd say preference should generally be given to novels. Normally when we are presented with conflicting facts, we only keep the one that is most accurate. However, I think it would be a real shame to lose all the articles we have on the Baldur's Gate series, even though they are not canon. So I think keeping the articles and listing them as "non canon" is a good idea. 15:03, 11 July 2008 (UTC) ::::It's interesting, but I have never actually seen anything from Wizards of the Coast that explicitly states "video games are not canon". This might exist somewhere, I'm really not sure. It's one of those things that is generally accepted by Realms fans though, for sure. Perhaps the better question might be: "are video games considered canon on this wiki?" and the answer to that is "no!" Some aspects of the games are canon, for sure. In Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn, the player visits Athkatla. To suggest that Athkatla is non-canon would be silly. However, other aspects are more murky. For example, each player has a slightly different experience in the game as they play through it. Suppose one player goes to location X, then location Y, but another player does this in the opposite order. These two series of events cannot both be canon! There is an interesting discussion on this matter at Candlekeep.com. The bottom line is that canon is what you make of it, but in a practical sense, the wiki must draw the lines in a place that everyone generally agrees upon. Fw190a8 20:20, 12 July 2008 (UTC) Canon Proposal I, Hurtzbad, would like to propose we tidy this section up. I've noticed (lurked actually) User:Fw190a8s posts on Candlekeep//forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8270 and the resultant flak (pun intended) s/he recieved. Interestingly, if the forum guys had looked here they would find Ulgoth's Beard (or they will when I finish the artical), yes it's a hamlet to the west of Baldur's Gate (city) at the mouth of the river Chionthar. ; I propose the following : # We establish just what is canon in detail and list them (this is easier than you think, just link to edition source books and novels, or even groups of them) # We establish a protocol for over-rides in canon eg one source says born 1311 and another says born 1312 (again this is easier than you think, later stuff usually will take priority) # We stick to our guns (And get clear about what is cannon) (what more pun's, sigh) : This is not a insult to what has gone before, it is ment as an achnologement of how big we have grown and the fact we need to start tiding up. Hurtzbad 08:30, 1 September 2008 (UTC) *I agree with Hurtzbad, that a real "ruleset" about canon would be nice. It is also interesting, because in the german wiki we do not have such a detailed rule about these things and I would like to do it the same as here (or similiar). But then there is the thing with the games, sure the story and how the players are going through the game can not be canonical correct ('cause everyone does this in a slightly different way, so it is like in the fiction of Star Wars, where gameplay things are officially not canon, but storyelements are official canon lore). But infos and facts presented in the games (like the mentioned Athkatla), background stories to NPCs which do not contradict other sources, could IMHO considered as canon. Most people know and like the games and I think many of us are considering the NPCs and some events, places and so on as part of the realms. So if someone stumbles over Tiax and reads "not canon", the question is, why should someone like Drizzt be canon and he not? Is he contradicting anything in the Realms, I don't think so and in the end it is like Ed (or someone else) said, canon is what you are considering as DM/Player/Reader canon. A Wiki should stay neutral to such things and only offer (all) informations and let the decission about what counts to the users and visitors. Historicus 10:33, 1 September 2008 (UTC) :*I third this idea. While I understand that it would be nice to just follow WOTC's guidelines the fact is that much of the popular material in the Realms is CRPGs like Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights. Furthermore, WOTC's attitude towards canon has been... inconsistent to say the least. While Ed Greenwood as remarked that only published materials are canon Richard Baker has said otherwise (that fans make their own canon) while I believe official WOTC policy is more of a pick and choose factor. ::Taking the Star Wars example here's a proposed list: ::#'E-canon:' Similar to Star Wars' "G-canon" this would be anything created with Ed's direct assistance, help, input, etc. This would include things like the core setting rulebooks (e.g., the 4E Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide), any books written by Greenwood (e.g., Cormyr: A Novel), or any other such items. This would be the highest level of "canon." ::#'W-canon:' Like "C-canon" from Star Wars this would be any material produced as a part of licensing but not created by universe creator Greenwood himself. So the majority of dungeons, sourcebooks, adventure material, and novels, would all be W-canon. This would also include the presumed "official" material of the Realms games, such as Baldur's Gate, as outlined in the novels, or the presumed ending of Neverwinter Nights (Aribeth's fate included). ::#'S-canon:' Like Star Wars' identically named category this would be any material produced officially as part of licensing, but which either includes variables or otherwise doesn't fit with the rest of the literature. Alternate endings to games, for instance, would be S-canon. ::Go ahead and let me know if you think this works as a proposed method of categorization and how we might implement it. Niirfa-sa 19:13, 1 September 2008 (UTC) :::I think it would be very useful to start Hurtz' proposal ASAP. Although Im not around here much nowadays I'd like to say I think multiple levels is unnecessary and material should simply either be canon or non-canon. Furthermore my understanding as to over-rides was that the most recent ruleset material has precedent (in terms of character/location info) and the more recent a source is (i.e. novels) the more precedent is given (to allow for ret-cons). Johnnyriot999 15:17, 2 September 2008 (UTC) * I don't particularly care either way. I personally don't think we need this level of micro-management, but since I'll largely ignore it either way and stick to the high level messaging (which is "computer games aren't canon and newer stuff trumps older stuff") then it doesn't impact me. 19:05, 2 September 2008 (UTC) :: But the question is where is it really officially stated, that computer games aren't canon? That's so far as I know only the assumption of some fans, but others do not share this oppinion. Even the official WOTC staff never said anything clear to this and some of them are rather contradicting each other. If you ask Ed, he said that even novels would be not canonical, Bruce and Co. said otherwise and in some new interview about 4. Ed, someone said that all published works with FR Label on it is considered as canon. So it is still only the assumption of some fans, nothing else. If you don't think of them as canonicel (or pieces of the games being canonical if they don't contradict other sources), then thats your personal canon, not the official one. And I think a Wiki should stay neutral to such matters and not bring in the personal lore of some gamers, fans, readers. It should present all informations as equal, thats what an encyclopaedia is for. But it should also include some contradicting informations but make clear where it came from, so let the reader/user decide which one is more accurate. Don't force the users our/or your picture of the FR with stating that counts, that not, this never happened, that never existed... If it came from an official source with the FR logo on it, then it is counting. If there exist another version to it, then write it in and make clear thats from there and this is from there. A sign "ATTENTION NOT CANONICAL" pisses only some fans of and they are asking, why have I bought it, if it counts for nothing.Historicus 10:25, 3 September 2008 (UTC) ::: To be honest, I thought this was already discussed elsewhere (though I don't recall where anymore). The decision was that computer games can't be canon since they have different outcomes based on who plays it. As a glaring example, you call kill Drizzt in one of the games. More commonly though, many of the antagonists in the game can either be killed or just thwarted... well, which one is it? However, the novels about the computer games are canon. For example, the name of the protagonist in the Baldur's Gate story is no longer variable: it's officially set in the Baldur's Gate novel. Also, this answers questions such as whether Jaheira is alive or dead: the answer is she's dead since it occured in the novel. Finally, this covers the concern about Athkatla that someone else had above. If it's a location that appears in a Baldur's Gate novel, then it's canon. It's a very straightforward determination and ruling about what is canon. 05:07, 4 September 2008 (UTC) ::: - It's not that simple. :::# While the assumptions as put above do exsit, it's not stated very well. Also our current stand is not well defined. example Canon, according to Ed Greenwood, is any published source relating to the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. - first line of Canon artical BUT the second line says it must be for sale in paper form so straight away we need to remove ALL articals that use the WoTC web expansions. Also ALL errata has to be removed. Also all documentation availiable on the WoTC site, etc. :::# Retrospective Canon is not addressed. Loudwater had, until FRCG was published, a whole lot of places and history. It's now moved from being on the river Delimbiyr to the river Greyflow. The bridge vanished and suddenly a town with over 1500 yrs history was founded about 200 yrs before 1479 DR (this particular issue is actually the root cause of my proposal) :::# I'm saying, lets change our Canon from being exclusive to being inclusive. Let's re-write the rules to include stuff on the fringes, but lets define where the finges are. Some of the stuff in the computer games is addressed no-where else and is useful and logical. Let's add that. Some of the stuff in the computer games is ilogical and goes against what is clearly written else-were. Lets not use that. We already have examples of where even Ed Greenwood or TSR or WoTC have said, opps, sorry about that Let's document that so people can see what happened. Let's document a fantasy land and remember it's just a fantasy. I never want to say, like one of my son's friends said. "That's not historically correct" when discussing Forgotten Realms. ::: - Hurtzbad 07:37, 4 September 2008 (UTC) And Philipp Athans said in an interview "''If it happened in a novel or in a game product—any part of the FORGOTTEN REALMS canon—it happened. We aren’t going to ask you to buy a copy of The Grand History of the Realms then throw it away. Every detail ever published on this massive setting is still there, is still a part of the history of this living, breathing world." So what? I don't meant that the different outcomings of the game should all be considered as happened (will not be that's right). But some details in the games, like Hurtzbad said, the stuff nowhere else addressed and not illogical to the rules of the setting. For example if there is a temple of Amaunator underneath the Umar Hills as a dragon lair, well why should it not be there? It's a good place, had a nice explanation and contradicts nothing else in the setting (as far as I know). Or the Severed Hand and Kuldahar, well why should such a place not exist somewhere in the Spine of the World? It's even somewhere in the sourcebooks told, that in the north exist many ruins of elves and dwarfes, most never heard of. So here is one of them described in a game, its not contradicting anything else, so what? Even some NSCs like Tiax, Kagain, Khorgan, whats the problem with them? Even if they are not in the novel (don't know that, cause haven't a BG novel) their backgrounds and character stories are no problem with any existing lore, so they may be living there, but never have met Abdallasomething and weren't part of the big Bhaalspawn adventure. So what I think about it is, the novels are what happened, and all details in the games, wich do not contradict them or are not described in them could also be part of the whole FR, it is only the Abdallawhatever had never been there, never met them, thats it. Another example Viconias background story gives some hints, why house Do'urden found it easy to destroy house DeVir. They fell out of Lolths favor because of the doings of Viconia and so every other house in Menzo would have done what Do'urdens did. In the novel they are only destroyed and nothing is told about what happened before, so its not contradicting the other sources and so it could be considered as happened. Historicus 09:01, 4 September 2008 (UTC) Just some thoughts. The novels and games (at least thinking of the BG series) just aren't part of the same continuity, and I don't think they should be mixed. I don't know about canonicity, but the way the games have been written about so far seems the logical way to do it. (Of course, I'm also in large part responsible for it myself, but I have given it thought before I did anything.) In fact, their assumed non-canonicity is what has helped make some sense of them, setting them apart. The fact is that there are competing and conflicting sources, possibly including other contrasts besides of games versus novels. (Compare the weapons given to Drizzt Do'Urden and Artemis Entreri in the 3rd edition FR book with the novels, for example. Drizzt's do have the same names, but the twinkly one has been reduced to having a +2 bonus from the +5 in 2nd ed, in my theory because he'd otherwise have too expensive gear for an NPC of his level, which obviously is a nonsensical limitation from a story point of view.) But with the computer games the problem is bigger, and doubly so when there are ineptly written novels about the same stories as well. There does not exist a story where, for example, Aerie exists and was just lucky enough to never meet Abduh but Jaheira is (as someone put it) "a simpering ninny" who can't do anything by herself. So for one thing, I strongly resist the idea of mixing the games and novels, thus misrepresenting both. Given the above, perhaps we should instead of levels of canonicity (if there are no proper criteria for those to be found) have different kinds of sources separated. That would enable them to be represented next to each other as they have been so far. The reason different kinds of sources have incompatible details is, of course, that they have different requirements. CRPGs and PnP material are different from each other and both are different from novels. If you look at something like NWN, it should be clear that even if the events and characters on a general level can be accepted alongside the rest of canon, some details can't be. NWN uses slightly different rules and in any case is a computer game, basically resulting in player-controlled characters being much more powerful than their level indicates compared to NPC adversaries. For this reason, all the bosses have ridiculously high levels. Especially towards the end, it's simply unbelievable that such powerful creatures (and ones so much more powerful than those encountered in other contexts) should exist in the Realms without having had a bigger effect on things. BG is sort of in between; only towards the end of Shadows of Amn do the levels of creatures begin to seem implausible, but in Throne of Bhaal we have (literally) small armies of characters way above tenth level and a random minor villain has two 18th-level mages hanging around for protection. I think the result of this is that whatever material you're drawing on, you need to take into account where it comes from (what kind of source) and how much you'll need to reconsider it to fit it into whatever you're creating. Or, if you just want information, you should be able to see its place in the bigger picture. (So that you don't think Vongoethe must be one of the most significant liches to ever have un-lived because his level in 2nd edition is so ridiculously high.) Ville V. Kokko 10:47, 4 September 2008 (UTC)